When to Change a Theme Park, and When Not To

0:00 Oh My, from our studios this week in Los Angeles and Tampa. This is green Tag Theme Park in thirty. I'm Philip and I'm joined as always by my delightful co host, the mister Scott Swinson from Scott Twinson Creative Development. On green Tag, we look at the top news each week and we try and discuss why it matters or doesn't matter to industry professionals in the theme park and theme entertainment spaces. And this week, I think the through line is going to be change. When should you change? How should you change? And should you be listening to your guests and how do you get that feedback and make experiences better? And sometimes it doesn't make it better, it just makes it worse. And I think, I mean, we'll start off this week with the story that a lot of our regular listeners have sent to me, which is the opening of the new Pirates ride in Disneyland.

0:49 I'm sure all of you have already seen this video. It's all over the internet, including all of the glorious memes that have come out with this, but basically, disney Land has open Pirates of the Caribbean. It was down for refurbishment. The primary reason it was down was to fix most of the a lot of the interior stuff and to realign effects. But they did add a new effect to one of the pirates on when you're in the first phase, when you're going through the caverns and there's there's one of the pirates and it used to be a static pirate and now they have added a kind of projection face to it where basically it picks up the gold It picks up a gold coin, and it it goes from a human to a skeleton by picking up the gold coin and just kind of repeats that cycle.

1:35 Basically. I'm sure you've seen the video, but that's what's going on, and that's that's the biggest new addition to it, although they have fixed some of the other elements throughout the ride. So this has sparked a lot of controversy online from folks, and I think it's I don't know, yes, a lot of the folks are not happy with it, and I think I'll give my quick take on it first, but my take is really just this is a reading the room problem where you know it kind of breaks. Basically, what you're doing is you're taking a really classic kind of dark ride element where it's a spooky skeleton and very atmospheric area, and you're adding this animation and projection area, so it does change the vibe of the place. But I think the main reason people are upset about it is actually because it looks more on the screen projection screens kind of technologies front right now and reading the room like right now, especially in America, people are not happy with AI.

2:38 They're not happy with screens. All we hear about is social media and suf how bad all that is, and which is why you're seeing a big movement for schools to discontinue phones, but also for restaurants and other places to reduce the amount of screens in the area. And I think it just came at the wrong time in a way, like you have all this kind of negative sentiment build up about screens, AI, about technology and all this where people are trying to return to in person, physical experiences, and in a way this is a metaphor of that, like Disney has taken away something that is classic but also very physical, like a physical prop that is spooky and litwell and you know, hand carved and replaced it with a projection mapped screen and I think that that's more what is causing the backlash.

3:27 I think it's less that it's bad quality. Like I don't think it's bad quality. I think it's just the situation that if I themselves in. I think the story on this is a little like I'm not sure the story fully meshes with the ride, but like a shrug on that, I just you know, you know, there's plenty of places that don't match that. But anyway, that's my take on it. But Scott has a storyteller. What do you think? I think I think all of this makes sense. I think you know, I think you're right. I think this is the wrong time to add technology or replace something that is beloved with technology just because you can replace it with technology. It kind of kind of goes back to that question just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. And then I think for me the most, and I say this sitting sort of outside the adult Disney realm, the adult Disney goer realm.

4:23 For me, it's it's I think this is all blown to a much larger proportion. I won't even call it out of proportion because for some people it's very important, but it's blown to a much larger proportion because it's changing something in a classic Disney ride, right. You know, I do belong to several adult Disney groups and sites or groups on various social media platforms, and I mean the perfect example is someone was just livid about the fact that they their their breakfast no longer consisted of a Mickey waffle and was now a character waffle, and they were like, is this the end? It's a flip and waffle kids, you know, I mean, lighten up. So I think I think this is I think I don't disagree with anything you've said, Philip. I think you're absolutely right that this is the wrong time to be doing it from a from a tech standpoint, But I think it's just elevated to the point because it is a classic Disney attraction. I mean, you know, you can't you can't change anything, even though people will constantly say they want change. So it's this is a perfect, perfect example to me of when people say, you know, we want it fresher, we want it newer. We want to find out what that means. Because this, you know, I look at it and I go, it's this much of the ride,

5:54 you know, it's it's a teeny tiny part of the ride and people are up in arms about it. Well, well, I think we've got much bigger things to be up in arms about number one and number two. It's it is difficult for park operators to know what the heck you mean when you say I want it to be fresher, I want it to be newer. I don't want to lose the story. So I think what's happened here is in the attempt to do something new and fresh and make it so that people will come back to Pirates of the Caribbean again, or it will be elevated in some way. They have somehow hit the sensitivity bone to nostalgia and made it so that it's you know, how dare you take this moment away? Well, to be honest, they didn't really take anything away, because one of the images is the skeleton that was originally there. It transforms now and to your point of storytelling, you know, I don't.

7:06 I don't think it's I've never thought it was fair to say that Pirates of the Caribbean follows the same storyline as the movies, because they don't. There's a lot of differences. Does it make sense within the storyline to your to your point shrug, eh, eh, you know it doesn't. I don't think it makes any less sense than a static skeleton sitting there in front of the gold. I also don't think it's necessary, right because going back being a bit of a traditionalist, I actually quite liked the staticness because what it did was it set up the anticipation of creating a moving scene or something in the future.

7:51 But it's the exposition that's I think that's the problem exactly. It's rushing the exposition. Right, that's right, it's rushing the exposition that whole cave and the whole point to it is to be an extended exposition that gets progressively creepier, right, and then the whole point comes. To life, right, that's exactly. So yeah, I think the whole point is to have those the skeletons that are that are skeletons. They're not moving, so everything is moving around them, you know, the stars, you the water, the night. They're static because they're they're dead. I mean, they're kind of frozen in time. And I think that's the that's I think a little bit what it ruins. I think I go back to what you say, A lot, which is about when you're looking at adding technology into a situation, it has to serve the story and not the other way around, and not just adding technology for technology's sake, And that would be my one, I guess main criticism is that it sort of feels like it wasn't necessary and they did it because they could, because this is their new technology that they debuted.

8:56 Some encounter is sitting behind a desk somewhere, going, we've had this ride clothes forever. We've got to come back with something new that we can talk about from a marketing standpoint, right, So there's there's that angle from a creative side. If you're going to do it to one of these characters, you got to do it to all of these characters, so or more than one, because now you've got to stick out. You've got to stand out like a sore thumb that goes back and forth, as opposed to just the static I loved as a kid, especially, I loved the static nature because it built a sense of anticipation of the great animatronics that we were about to see. Right So I I personally don't feel it was necessary, But I'm also not going to sit there and be all up in arms about it and say, how dare you touch this classic? You know, it's it's a theme park ride. Lighten up, you know it's it's not global politics or brain surgery. So but I think I think that these are But these are definitely things that people need to consider when you're trying to decide should I change this? Should I add technology to this?

10:08 And the biggest piece of information or the biggest recommendation I would give is it's don't don't shy away from technology. But technology is not the end, it is the means. So what are you What is it that you are trying to accomplish? Is it simply that you need something new to talk about from a marketing standpoint? Okay, I can accept that if you really think that Pirates of the Caribbean, for example, needs a marketing boost, really I don't think so. But but maybe maybe is it a justification for you know, being closed for so long for to do renovations? Maybe? But I don't Having not ridden the ride, based on what I've seen in video and based on what we've talked about, I don't see that it necessarily enhances anything. And you know, it's one of those things that the things that we really never know.

11:07 Maybe it's just that that skeleton had finally rotted through, so they thought instead of replacing it with another skeleton, they said, oh wait, we've got this cool technology. Let's throw this in there. That'd be fun, right, right, So it's it's hard to say, it's hard to say, but I think you know, based on this kind of of I'm gonna call it Disney hysteria, you know, we'll we'll we'll call it the we'll call it the Mister Toad's Wild Ride syndrome, this sort of Disney hysteria of how dare you touch this classic? If they'll get over it, they'll find something else to be worried about in the not too distant future. Maybe it's Mickey Waffles. Right, Well, Mick be going.

11:50 Away to close this out. I will I will say that the point you're circling there is, of course, what makes Disney Disney is exactly what Well used to say, which is that they kind of always change. That's what makes Disney Disney, right, and so this type of thing is exactly what makes Disney Disney is that they do go in and they take bets, both small and large and they do change everything constantly, and that's why you have you know, I go to Disneyland frequently. This is my home park, and there's so much innovation. Remember when the main street windows and the projection mapping, like all these things, a lot of things didn't work out, and the ones that do they refine. Can I point out that Jack Sparrow was never in the original parts of the Caribbean, right, right? Can I just point that out?

12:36 Yeah, yeah, exactly. So anyway, we'll move on finally to six Flags. For those of us. Oh good, that means we'll get listeners. Good, we're talking about six Flags. So this is I'm going to link here to an interview that my colleague Danny did at Attraction's magazine, And this is a few weeks old, but we didn't have talked about last week, so I thought we'd bring up this week because there were some interesting moments here speaking of change. But basically this. Interview is with the new Enchanted Parks CEO James Harheye, and he it was about physically about how one of the recent decisions that he made was the elimination of the legacy dying plans.

13:17 The six Flags has so that's catch everybody up. Remember that Enchanted Parks was sold several of the six Flags properties. And they will be so they were going to keep. A lot of the stuff the same throughout this year to honor the existing season pass holders and all that stuff, and then they're going to be transitioning over into the Enchanted Park's way of doing things. And so he's been going on a little bit of a tour and explaining some of the changes, et cetera, et cetera. And one of them is going to be discontinuation of the dining plans from six Flags. And what he said about it is, we have to do things differently than six Flags. We cannot continue to do what six Flags did because these parks are not six Flags, Okay, and Channa Parks has focused on reducing menu prices where possible while prioritizing investments that directly impact the guests experience. We did price reductions by removing the dining plan. We know it's painful, we feel long term this is the right decision. Ultimately, he explained that the company believes guests would rather see resources invested in the experiences that create lasting memories.

14:16 Let's focus on rides and improvements, not chick contenders. Yeah, what do you think? Well, so I agree. I agree with the vast majority of this intent. I agree with the vast majority of this intent. I think I love the let's focus on rides and improvements, not chicken tenders. However, if you are the mother of a small child, the only thing slightly more important than rides are chicken tenders. So I think it kind of goes back to those creature comforts. You got to make sure that the creature comforts are met. Now, to me, this sounds a lot like I'm going to say, corporate speak to get rid of the dining plan. You know, if you want to get rid of the dining plan, say we're getting rid of the dining plan. You know. I think that trying to to justify it, and I guess that's kind of what they're doing. It says, you know, we know it's painful, but we do feel that in the long term it's the right decision. I love the fact that he's saying we're not six flags anymore. That I think is a really strong and important statement to make, is that we're not going to run like six Flags. We're going to you know, honor. We're gonna honor. We're not going to chase away our season pass holders because that's another stupid thing to do. Let's let's buy some parks and piss off all of our loyal customers. Bad idea, bad idea.

15:48 But to be able to say we're going to offer new and different things in the future, We're going to be able to make changes that are right for our parks that may be different from what you've come to back from from six Flags, but they're going to have to basically identify themselves in the market and clarify what what they're sorry without sounding like a broken record, what their north stars are going to be, and what they need to focus on and accomplish. I I I understand people who are you know, who live and die by the dining plan, but let's just be honest, you know, since this show is about change and the and the way change happens. Any time there is a change in a theme park, there is always a backlash. There is always a backlash. Now, sometimes that backlash comes in the form of a giant firestorm, and sometimes it comes in the form of you know, six Karens very upset. So I think it's important to recognize. Sorry anyone named Karen, I apologize, but you know what I'm talking about. It comes down to people are always going to be upset about change, especially people who are passionate about theme parks.

17:06 This is like I mentioned in the last story, this is five times greater with Disney. But I think anybody who has come to expect something from a park the moment it changes, even if it changes, even if the change is going to be better for them in the long run, they still fight it because we are change averse when it comes to our parks. We want the comfort food of the we want. We want all new rides, but we don't want to get rid of any of the old ones. We want all new shows, but we don't want to get rid of any of the old ones. We want all new casts, even though for parks that have been around forever, those casts are now sixty years old and they can't kick up their feet quite as high as they used to. So it's one of those things that change is inevitable. It's going to happen, and you also have to recognize and plan for when you make these changes. If you've done it for the right reasons, a couple of things. Be prepared that there's going to be there's going to be pushback no matter what it is.

18:04 No matter what it is, we're changing the color of our restrooms. Someone is going to be upset. Someone is going to be upset, So be there, to be there to listen and to explain why. But I think that leads very much into the second one, and that is communication. Why is this happening, How is this changing? How is this moving forward? This is where I kind of have a little hesitancy with this story because it's general. You know, it's very general. We're making these decisions because it's best in the long run. Okay, how that's right. That's that's what's missing for me. That would eliminate the blowback, right, I agree with that. I actually was.

18:46 The reason that I pushed the story off from previous weeks is just because I was a little bit waiting to see if there was going to be a bigger announcement about their overall strategy. And I think that's what you're getting at, which is what we're missing, which is how are these parks going to be different from six lags? He said, they're different, We're not six lags. You're they're correct that that is a great place to start, But then what makes enchanted parks uniquely enchanted parks? What makes them unique? And I think there, I'm sure they're still figuring that out, which is totally fine to me. That was weird where we're announcing, like why I announce this without the other part? Why not just kind of wait and then say this is how this is the new enchanted parks is what we do better, and we could roll it into that Elevated dining is a part of what makes our parks different than other parks. And part of that elevated dining is X, Y and Z. You're gonna get like a quen was salmon bowl or whatever, you know, put these things and their chicken tenders, but you know, have the good, better, best thing, and then just not have to highlight the fact that you're limiting the dining plan, but just make it part of a new dining experience.

19:56 Right exactly. Well, it's it's kind of what we were saying about the Disney story too. Read the room, Read the room. When when food prices you're telling families that you're not going to have cheap food. It's all you're doing. You're just selling them correct. Correct, And to me, I would have said, I would have led with. To me, the story would have been, we are looking at reducing our menu prices. Ye. That would have been the lead story, right. In order to do that, we are going to have to reevaluate the our our all day dying option. Yep. So what we're really trying to do is save you money. It's all about presentation and full information, you know, lead with, lead with what guests are not going to be upset with, right, and and and that helps explain why the changes are happening.

20:46 So that goes back to my point of be prepared to explain how the change is going to happen. Right. I think the guest reading these announcements are only looking to see how it's going to impact them when they go to the parks. And the only thing to take away from this entire article is that you're not gonna get a dining plan. There's nothing like, there's no additional to it. And I'm sure Scott and I mean, I'm sure Scott knows, but when I read it, my you know, not my corporate but my CEO brain is like, oh, they probably just don't get a good enough discount now that they are only six parks instead of it's a smaller. Yeah, it's a much smaller. You know, they don't have they don't have volume pricing when it comes to buying their stuff. I think that's I think that's part of it.

21:28 I also think that they may be looking at it going we need to find ways that will differentiate us, and whether that is more elevated dining or whether that is lowering the price on existing dining or whatever that is. They've got to find their own their own path in the forest here and not continue to follow the six Flags path. I mean, bottom line, it's probably just the bottom line. It's probably just that bulk pricing. They need to they need to do something. They need to do something to to to reduce to maximize spend. And you know, truth be told, this could completely backfire, yes, because now people may not eat at all. Right, so who knows, we'll see. But I like the intent. I like the intent of let's move forward, let's become our own parks, let's not live on the legacy of six flags.

22:27 Right well, our next story also in the change theme, but this is someone who didn't change anything. So Walt Disney World the Christmas has expanded their season, but they haven't changed anything about the It's just it's just longer. So the holiday season at Disney World is going to be from November thirteenth to January sixth. However, some of the events are going to start even earlier than that. Mickey's Very Married, Chris's Party returns November eighth, and Jollywood Knights is November seventh, which means that you're going to have at least one week where you'll have haunted houses and you will have Smith's events opened during the same weekend in pretty close markets, the Orlando ones, you know, drive a few hours you'll be able to go to a Honted House and Jollywood Knights maybe in the same night.

23:09 So and it goes all the way through to January sixth for the general holiday and then January fifth for Jollywood Knights, So they are kind of extending into that first week of January trying to push the envelope. So a few things that we've talked about over the years. One is the expansion of the seasonal window and how far can you actually push Christmas, And this is a pushing it into January to see if that January time, if you can push it later in January. But it also something in Scott talks about a lot, which is the idea of what is Christmas and Christmas is nostalgia and for families. And I guess that's why they didn't have to I mean, I actually they didn't change anything.

23:51 All the same stuff is coming back in this case. I don't actually think it's a problem because you know, Disney World is not it is mostly visitors, and visitors like nostalgia. People like nostalgia written you know, generally for Christmas, they like nostalgia more. And this is more visitor base than it is passholders. So I see the reasoning behind it as to why they didn't change anything. They just made it longer. So what do you think, Scott? I agree with you. I think that they recognized that it's it's Christmas at Disney. That's all you gotta do.

24:32 That's all you got to say, that's all you gotta do. You know, I went back again. I haven't been back to the Disney parks at Christmas. I'm in a very long time, very very long time. But I used to go and not even go into the parks. I would just go and check out the various resorts. I'd go see the big gingerbread house at at Grand Floridian, I'd go. So that's the one thing that is changing. They're not bringing back the gingerbread house at Glenn. Do you know why though? But you know why? Right the bar. There's a new venue there. At the bar, right, it won't fit there anymore. Right, So there's that. But again, it's just Christmas at Disney.

25:15 When you walk in to any of those resorts with your family at Christmas time, that is more than enough, you know, That is the and And what's really funny is if they were to all of a sudden change everything, they'd lose the nostalgia. Well, first of all, they spend way too much money, and that they wouldn't need to spend because, like I just said, Disney Christmas, you know that's enough. That's enough. And secondly, I think people would be upset. I think people would be upset in the fact that they don't get to see the the Christmas tree at at Oh Gosh.

26:05 Anti Kingdom. Well, I'm not even talking about the parks. I'm even just even talking about the resorts. There's certain there're certain decor that they don't want to change, you know. They they they want to see, they want to see a parade. Will an audience remember whether it's exactly the same parade or not. Most of them won't. I mean I know we will. In the industry, we'll look at it and go, well, float number four and there are those pehole, there are those of Disney fanatics. So we'll look and go, well, float number four is now float number five, and they've changed the the blue lights to teal lights. And but you know, the families who are there to really get the experience, to really get the emotional oomph from the Christmas experience, they'll be like, oh, I remember that float last year. It was so charming, that was that was Little Susie's favorite float.

26:53 You know. It's and and again, Halloween is different. Halloween is Halloween. You have to have something new and startling and exciting and fresh and vibrant and whatever, because you can't scare somebody the same way twice, whether you're a scary event or not. You can't be spooky the same way twice. But Christmas is all about tradition. I mean, let's be honest, folks, when you put up your Christmas decorations at home, you don't buy completely Most people don't buy completely new Christmas decorations. And in fact, part of the fun of it is as you're installing your tree, going oh, this was the ornament that we got when we did so and so, and this was the ornament that the Johnson's gave us when they moved in next door. And now they are our best friends. And it's all about going back and reminiscing and building upon that great tradition. And I think the same is true with Disney and the fact that they are expanding it. I think it's fair to say yet again, to make it even longer just shows that it ain't you know, they recognize because these are expensive.

28:04 These are expensive things to run, and if you can get the most revenue possible then great, you know that's that's what they're going to do. What I mean, what do you think about the timeline. Do you think it's going to be successful just because it's Disney or is it something like do you think other places could run something from November eighth to January sixth? Well, I wouldn't set my goal to be that. I wouldn't like start a new event and just open it up and say we're going to be open November November eighth to January sixth, simply because you have to build to that. I think Disney has clearly done that. Yes, there will be a drop off after Christmas. Yes there'll be a drop off after the first of the year, and my guess is that is firmly worked into their budgeting strategy. But it also gives people who didn't get a chance to see it or who I will tell you what happens a lot. We'll call it the empty nesters post Christmas Christmas experience. I've seen it with my other clients as well. People who don't necessarily want to be surrounded by young children will go and experience it after Christmas, where you know, the hyper sugar level is significantly lower and the crowds are somewhat smaller. So it's a great way to provide to use the same the same content for multiple audiences and give you know, empty

29:37 nesters or you know, folks without kids, older folks without kids a way to experience the attraction and the experience without necessarily having to deal with the young families. If you don't want to, so I think it's I wouldn't So to answer your question directly, I would not recommend this to start with for any new organization that is trying to do a Christmas event. But if you build to it and you do it, I mean clearly, Disney does Christmas right. So because they do Christmas right, they just have to keep expanding it so more and more people can experience it and see it. So hopefully more and more people will experience us again next week because we're at a time. So guys, thank you all so much.

30:18 We hope hope you've enjoyed our little show about when to change and when not to on behalf of Fillip with Gandom Lighting and controls of myself Scott Swinson with Scott Swinson Creative Development. This is Green Tag Theme Park in thirty and we will be thrilled to see all of you next week