July 26, 2026

Fortnite Comes to Halloween Horror Nights, Orlando Market Slows

Fortnite Comes to Halloween Horror Nights, Orlando Market Slows
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Halloween Horror Nights is bringing Fortnitemares to both its US events this fall, a scare zone modeled on the game's annual in-game Halloween event, complete with the Battle Bus and a few HHN-exclusive additions. Fortnite is the most-played console game in the United States, with more than 650 million lifetime registered players, a brand larger than the event hosting it. The creative objection is the weakest one, since Fortnitemares is already a Halloween event. The harder questions are operational: this targets the same young demographic behind teen takeovers, in a scare zone with no line to control. Success comes down to balancing three brands at once, enough Fortnite, enough Halloween, and enough Universal.

Meanwhile, Universal's theme parks grew revenue 2.7% in the second quarter while segment EBITDA fell 5.1%, the first decline since Epic Universe opened. Orlando attendance softened in June and stayed pressured into July, with management pointing to fuel prices and consumer sentiment. Guests who come are spending, but fewer are coming, and Epic itself is still delivering. The response is a Halloween bet: a 48-night Horror Nights run starting August 28, Universal Nights in October, and Epic passholder discounts up to 40%. We've argued summer is becoming the industry's new shoulder season, and this quarter shows why. Summer sells the core product alone, while fall sells the same core plus the seasonal overlay on one ticket. Tokyo Disney raising its top price for October and Six Flags flash-selling $35 summer tickets point the same direction.

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WEBVTT

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Okay, from our studios this week in Los Angeles and Tampa.

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This is Green Tags Theme Park in thirty. I'm Philip

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from Gantam Light and Control, so I always forgot to

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say that. And Scott Twinson of Scott spenscing Care Development

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is joining me as always and this on Green Tag

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Theme Park and thirty. We look at the top news

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each week in the theme park world and we pick

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what we think are the best stories that are most

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important for theme park professionals. And this week, although we're

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gonna try and dip our toes into the controversy that

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is Fortnitemares, and then we're gonna look a little bit

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more about the earnings and why the Fortnite story sort

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of eclipsed the softening demand in the Orlando market that

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we're seeing. But anyway, uh, Scott, We're gonna start off here.

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Have you played Fortnite?

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Tell me this? Have you played Fortnite?

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No?

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Okay, I am me there.

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I am familiar with it as far as the popularity,

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the characters, some of the characters, the concept ish sort

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of kind of right. So let's but I think you know,

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as we dive in here, why don't you set the

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stage for us. Why don't you set up because there's

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some people who may not be in the Halloween part

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of our industry who may be like, what is you

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talking about this fortnitemares? Right?

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So Fortnite is a very popular game that neither Scott

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of I have played because we are old.

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Sorry, but which not tedtris? I can't. I don't know.

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It's gotta be. I'll tell you that. You know, you

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can play Solitaire now. It's amazing, I know.

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So Halloween Hornites is bringing Fortnite, the most played console

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game in the United States, as a scare zone to

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both both coasts, to both Hollywood and Florida this year.

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Guests will drop into the world of Fortnitemares is what

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it's called Fortnitemares and move through ever evolving, high stakes

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environments modeled on the game's fall event, and you can

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expect to see the Battlebus and familiar Fortnite Mare characters,

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plus a few new additions exclusive to Halloween Horrnites. So basically,

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Halloween her Nights is making a physical walkthrough translation of

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the game's annual moment because this isn't a game event

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that happens every year, and so they're making it they're

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bringing into the fiscal world.

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There also are hints that.

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There's going to be some sort of gamification or some

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sort of quest or things, that some sort of role

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that the guests should be playing when they are walking

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through this, because it's modeled after the game event, of course,

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and so this has sparked a lot of controversy in

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our community but also kind of broken out into the mainstream,

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and I wanted to put context around that. The reason

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that this has gone so big is essentially I'm just

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gonna break it down, but essentially Fortnite is larger than

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Halloween Horn Nights, and it's larger than Universal like studios,

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like as a brand.

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It's larger.

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So it's interesting because I think that's why where it's

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sort of like this enormous fandom. And some numbers for you.

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I mentioned already it's the number one most played console

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game in the United States, but also they put the

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lifetime registered players at more than six hundred and fifty million,

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and during twenty twenty three, there was more than one

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hundred million that were like active confirmed players. It's also

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known for its big events sound familiar. It's known for

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like these big communal experiences where all people get together

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and do these massive events. How massive you might ask, Well,

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the in game events are the closest thing that it has,

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like dadium concerts. So for example, Travis Scott's twenty twenty

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Astronomical Show drew twelve point three million concurrent concurrent players,

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and the Epic Remix finale in November of twenty twenty

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four hit an all time record of fourteen point three

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million concurrent players. So just these are massive, massive events.

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These are all people that are logged in experiencing these

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communal things at the same time. So there is an

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interesting crossover where it's already an audience that is kind

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of used to like showing up and participating in communal

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events and playing roles and doing things, and so then

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hhi and taps this. So I think where the controversy

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has come is where the Halloween Hornites fans or the

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people that enjoy Halloween Hornites are concerned about a few

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things that we've been talking about. One, they're concerned about minors,

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they're concerned about chaperone policies, they're concerned about potential takeover

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risks and all this kind of stuff that's coming from

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our industry and from of some of the theme park

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design people basically wondering, how are we gonna how are

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we going to make sure this event kind of stays

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safe and stay scared and all that, and kind of

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worried about that. Then there's the people from the creative standpoint,

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which are arguing that this is a breakdown of the

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Halloween hornites because it's not really like a Halloween property

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or any of those things. It's like it's a it's

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a game, and you know you're bringing this in. I

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guess my counterpoint before I get your take as someone

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who's done this for a long time and gone through

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all these same issues, but my just take, hot take

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from a historical standpoint is that is not the first

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time that they brought in gaming ips like a Fallout

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last year. And I would also argue that this is

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literally an in game Halloween event. I feel like, if

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you're comparing it to like Fallout, which doesn't have a

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Halloween in its world and you're bringing that in, I

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kind of feel like, and I guess for me putting

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in perspective of FanFest nights, also, this is clearly a

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strategy that Universal is trying where they're trying to tap

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into really rabid fan bases in other genres and pull

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them in, And I think the crossover is enough. Like, honestly,

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I'm like, it's enough. It's a it's a Halloween event

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that happens in the game. Put that in the real

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world now it'll be interesting because I do think it

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opens up a possibility for passes that are not even

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May's passes.

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So if you look at what Horror and Leashed.

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Is doing where they sell that thirty dollars scaredy Cat

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pass that doesn't include the haunts, I could see that

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being a whole new revenue stream here as well, where

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you can sell a event only pass that does and

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include haunted houses whatever. Also, last thing, I think it's

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a pure revenue play because parents, you know, like you're

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gonna have to buy tickets for your kids and potentially

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your chaperones to all go and they're just all going

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to stay in the same area. But from a security

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and a crowd perspective, I could see how this could

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be potentially problematic.

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But Scott, you're the expert, you tell me, what do

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you think?

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Well, I think the first thing we have, the first

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thing we kind of have to break in my opinion.

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We have to break this down a little bit. You know,

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you quoted these gimungous numbers for in game events. This

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is not an in game event. This is a real

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life event. This is this requires travel, This requires hotel rooms,

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This requires a hell of a lot more planning than

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logging in. So I understand. I agree with you that

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it's a money grab. I agree with you that this

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is a I mean, it's it's sort of like and

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the one that failed was when they when they did

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the Weekend for example, I mean, talk about talk about

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something that has absolutely virtually nothing to do with Halloween.

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Yeah, that's a good example, right, They just kind of

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made it.

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They made it Halloween in their own way. And and

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there's nothing wrong with the weekend. I'm not saying the

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Weekend is a bad brand. I'm not saying that. You know,

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it's just it's just it's a force fit. In my opinion,

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that was a forcefit. This again, I think you have

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to I think, and this is something that I've always

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wondered about Universal and how and I've seen them over

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the years have some success from time to time, but

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mostly it just kind of goes well when you try

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to bring something that is that you have such dedicated

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fans too, and as you've seen here, millions and millions

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and millions of dedicated fans. When you try to bring

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it into the real world, it's not nearly as exciting

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because you can't. You know, you have to rely on

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things like the laws of physics, you know, basic costuming,

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laws of gravity. There's a bunch of things. There's a

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bunch of things to get in the way when you're

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trying to recreate something that exists digitally. Now that said,

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it says you know, as you mentioned that, there are

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some specific Halloween horonites, a few additions that are exclusive

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to Halloween horonites. That's where the uniqueness comes in. You know,

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we've often said that a really good balance is if

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you're looking at an IP, you think about it like

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a three legged stool. It has to represent the overall

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brand of the park, the brand of the IP, and

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the season with which you are bringing it into the park.

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So there has to be enough Halloween, there has to

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be enough Fortnite, and there has to be enough universal.

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So that's the magic in my opinion, that's the magic

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balance that they're going to have to try to find

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and I can't tell you what that is because I'm

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not educated enough in the brand, nor do I have

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any inside information on what Universal is actually trying to

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drive forward. I do understand Halloween. So they need to

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make certain that, whether it exists or not, that there

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is a reason for Fortnite to be taking place in

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a Halloween event. And sometimes that's difficult, sometimes it's not.

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Sometimes it's really really easy.

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You know.

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It kind of goes back to the adage that I've

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used for over thirty years. A good haunted house is

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insert a place or in this case an ip and

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add the phrase gone horribly horribly wrong. So it's what

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is it about, What is it that's happening in the

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world of Fortnite that is Halloween related, and how does

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that contribute to the overall Universal or in this case,

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Halloween Hornite's brand. So you got to make sure that

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they all three play nights together, because if you lean

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too far, if you make it too Halloween and not

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Fortnite enough, the Fortnite f are furious. If you make

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it too Universal but not Fortnite enough, then you've got

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you just have to be very very careful. You have

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to find that balance because you're dealing with you're dealing

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with a merging of fandoms which are adjacent. I'll admit,

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and I think it's a I don't think it's a

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bad choice necessarily. It just as we say almost every show,

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it depends on execution. So it depends on how well

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they can balance between those three I mean basically those

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three brands, the Fortnite brand, the Universal brand, and the

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Halloween brand. You cannot forget the Halloween brand. And this

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is true whether you are dealing with a high end brand,

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a highly recognized brand like Fortnite, or whether you are

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trying to create a Halloween event for an attraction that

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has its own separate brand. You've got to be true

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to the brand that is. Let me rephrase that. You

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can't necessarily completely undermine or dismiss the brand of the attraction.

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You have to at least recognize it and choose whether

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you're going to reinforce it or you're going to go

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for an audience adjacent to it or outside of it.

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But you have to make that choice consciously because that's

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going to impact how you implement the brand and how

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you make it halloweenish. Halloweenish? Did I almost say Halloween,

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no halloweenish. So it's finding it's finding that balance between

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those three things. I think that could make it successful.

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I think the biggest challenge you're going to have is,

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no matter what they do, because it's live, it's not

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going to be Fortnite. Right. What I think is interesting,

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and I think we've seen this happen in the industry

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a lot is you know, first person gaming was designed

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to replicate real world, and now it has replaced real world,

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and now they're to bring it back into real world.

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So unless they unless they have some very clever and

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there are times that Universal completely surprises me and they

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will come up with some unique technology or some unique

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way of staging or writing or whatever. But you know,

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if it's if it becomes a uh, here's a piece

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of paper and a pencil. You got a scavenger hunt

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going on. That ain't Fortnite. So you gotta be you

229
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gotta be really careful, excuse me, really careful with that.

230
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And I think as long as they can identify why

231
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Fortnite fans are Fortnite fans and make sure that that element,

232
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that essential essence is there and that and make sure

233
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that it works in harmony with people who are Halloween

234
00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:51.279
fans and people who are Universal fans, then I think

235
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they could have something successful. But this is this is

236
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:57.159
always the caution that I put out with IP in general,

237
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and that is just because you can get the IP

238
00:12:59.919 --> 00:13:02.639
or just because you have the IP does not guarantee

239
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:06.159
that you're going to be able to glean profit off

240
00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.840
of the success of said IP. You have to have

241
00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:12.480
a way to integrate it into your experience. So that's

242
00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.519
no matter what it is, whether it's Fortnite or I

243
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.919
don't know, Roodolph the Red Nose Reindeer for a Christmas event.

244
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Make sure you have a way to integrate it into

245
00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:27.159
your event that satisfies the IP brand, your brand, and

246
00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:27.960
the holiday brand.

247
00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.000
YEP. I really like that, Lens.

248
00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:34.000
I think that it's going to depend, like you said,

249
00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.200
on the execution and really thinking about what you said,

250
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.919
like who, why do the Fortnite people like Fortnite? And

251
00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:42.879
how do you make sure that is echoed at the

252
00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:46.799
event enough to actually win them to get there. I

253
00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:49.919
will say we've seen similar things with five Nights at

254
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:54.960
Freddy's right and with Terrifier a little bit. And it

255
00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:55.960
became clear to me.

256
00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:59.000
Last year at Halloween horn nights that.

257
00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:03.720
Honestly, even if it would for finance at Freddy's, even

258
00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:07.240
just putting the cutout, like there is a line of

259
00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.519
people just take pictures with the cardboard cutout of the characters,

260
00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:12.960
and then there's people that want to take pictures of

261
00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:19.360
the really horrible cupcake, the actual cupcake, of the cupcake

262
00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.799
right where it was like all frosting, And so it's a.

263
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.240
I think it doesn't have to be that hard in that.

264
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.600
You know, honestly, they probably could just put up photo

265
00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.720
ops and I think that would that you'd be shocked

266
00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.120
at how how far good photo ops will get you

267
00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:39.759
when it's a fandom that's very rapid for them and

268
00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:41.799
they haven't necessarily seen them in the real world, which

269
00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:44.559
is the Finance at Freddie's thing, where you haven't seen

270
00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.240
these puppets in the Liddalle world, and so it's like

271
00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:48.720
it's such a it's so rapid.

272
00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:50.000
So I think, don't underestimate that.

273
00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:51.919
But I agree with you if they try and force

274
00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:55.759
a thing like an activity that is inherently not Fortnite

275
00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:58.360
onto Fortnite people, it's going to backfire versus just putting

276
00:14:58.360 --> 00:14:59.039
a photo op.

277
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:02.519
Well, and also you know operationally, how is it? How

278
00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:04.320
are they going to make it work? You mentioned terrifier.

279
00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:07.320
Terrifier was a disaster at first, it was, right, because

280
00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.240
that's why I mentioned it, Yeah, because it was it was, oh, yeah,

281
00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:12.799
well we'll just you know, we'll just put him out

282
00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:15.159
there and he'll just appear randomly and blah blah blah

283
00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:17.799
blah blah, and either he was mobbed or people were

284
00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:19.000
bitching because they didn't find it.

285
00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:24.080
So and then well I was going to ask you

286
00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:25.759
on that same line.

287
00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.639
Right, we've been talking so much about how Parks I

288
00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:31.440
guess maybe just six lags, but like Parks, I think

289
00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.240
in general and a lot of places are trying to

290
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:36.159
get away from the tween audience, right, quite deliberately, trying

291
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:39.840
to rebrand or remarket or move up the the audience

292
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:41.759
chain away from that demographic.

293
00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:43.360
And this is the reverse.

294
00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.840
This is universal, quite quite, I mean, there's not much

295
00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:49.000
you This is a lot of the concerns from our

296
00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:52.399
industry that came from the operations people of like you

297
00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.840
are quite literally targeting the exact demo demo that does

298
00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:59.159
the team takeovers and how many stories have we done

299
00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:00.000
on team takeovers?

300
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.519
Like, so, what are you going to do to mitigate that.

301
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:05.440
And the only thing I can think of is that

302
00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:08.879
this is it's the infrastructure they already have in place.

303
00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:12.120
They already have security, They already like they unlike an

304
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.519
FEC or unlike a bowling center or some of these

305
00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.799
other places. These places already have infrastructure to absorb, they

306
00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:21.120
have security, they have all of the stuff in place.

307
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:22.639
They also have the ticket gate.

308
00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:24.799
I mean this is behind a ticket wall, so you

309
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.240
have to have a ticket to get in. So I

310
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.080
think the price might mitigate that by itself.

311
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.399
But I will say that, you know what, what's just

312
00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:39.200
outside the park? Yes, both locations. That'd be a great

313
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:43.799
place for a takeover, wouldn't it, right, And whether it's

314
00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:47.000
kids coming in to see fortnited Hornites or kids who

315
00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:52.879
have seen horrnites fortnited Hornites and are coming out, Yeah,

316
00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.159
I think it's interesting because what I'm trying to do

317
00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.840
is I understand. I understand why they're going for it

318
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.759
because it is a lucrative market.

319
00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:02.799
Yeah it is.

320
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:04.880
There is money to be spent. These are kids who

321
00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.000
aren't saving for college at These are kids who their

322
00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.680
parents are gonna say, oh, you want to go see

323
00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.720
this this video game thing at at at Universal. Here, great,

324
00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:17.279
here's some cash, or here's your card, you know, here's

325
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:22.839
your debit card. Run go have a good time. And uh,

326
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.680
there's just you know, the money flows because they want

327
00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:29.960
to be able to say I got the the exclusive

328
00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:32.680
Halloween Hornet's Fortnite shirt or whatever the hell it is,

329
00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:35.599
and or I experienced it and I created content while

330
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:37.480
I was there and I got to see that. So

331
00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.079
it is kind of like printing money. But you're absolutely right,

332
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:45.640
it's it's a there's there are some there are some

333
00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:48.960
risks involved, and I'm sure that Universal has looked at it.

334
00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:52.240
I mean, let's be honest. Universal has always kind of

335
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:57.720
targeted that market. What was the what was the what's

336
00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:01.000
the is it silent Hill? Well, what's the one with

337
00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:07.200
the big yeah pyramidhead personally, Yeah, you know they've gone

338
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:13.079
the last The last ip they did that I absolutely

339
00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:15.839
had to go see was American Werewolf in London. So

340
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.599
that goes that shows you how long that was. But

341
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:23.599
but they've targeted these it's not I guess it's nothing new.

342
00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:26.960
They've targeted these these borderline things. What's happened, what's changed

343
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:30.759
is the audience. What that tween audience is has changed

344
00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:33.200
or early teen early.

345
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.119
Teens, and we've talked about that too, where where kind

346
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.680
of the behavior has changed to the market behavior since

347
00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:41.279
the pandemic. I also want to add though, what we've

348
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:43.599
been hearing from a lot of the operations people, because

349
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:45.039
a lot of people texted me about the story to

350
00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:47.400
talk about on the show, and they share their opinions

351
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:50.759
with me. But they pointed out to what I heard

352
00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:54.799
is that making this a scare zone was a bold

353
00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:58.359
choice because if it's a house, you can at least

354
00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:01.440
control the line, right. If it's a scare zone, it's

355
00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:03.799
like you have just a It's like it's just asking.

356
00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:05.599
It's almost like takeover bait.

357
00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:10.480
I I can see. I can see two sides to that,

358
00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.759
to that comment, because from an operational standpoint, you put

359
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:17.559
a bunch of of hyped up teams in a queue

360
00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.640
that's not moving fast enough for their liking, and that

361
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:25.880
becomes a disaster waiting to happen. As well. Also, with

362
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:30.039
a scare zone, you are in a more open space

363
00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:34.400
so that you can see what's going on. In a haunt,

364
00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:36.920
you know, no matter how much security you have, no

365
00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:39.400
matter how no matter how many cameras you have, there's

366
00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.200
always going to be those those blind corners where you know,

367
00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.799
I hate to say it, but where the ill gotten,

368
00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:52.480
ill gotten youth can go and beat the crap out

369
00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.000
of your actors. So or just dismantle your your your

370
00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:02.000
scenic So I can see, I can see both sides

371
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.839
of that one. I think I would probably vote to

372
00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.200
put it in a scare zone though, because I think

373
00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:10.960
in a scare zone you have a little bit better.

374
00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:14.559
On the one hand, you can you have the mass

375
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:17.359
mentality that can kind of take over. On the other hand,

376
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:22.079
you can immediately come in from all sides. You know

377
00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:24.240
what I'm saying. I mean you can you can disperse

378
00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:28.519
quickly as opposed to as opposed to evacuating a haunt.

379
00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.160
Right right, And then you can staff that area too.

380
00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:33.000
I mean, yeah, you can. You can set up things

381
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.920
that disperse the area and keep people going.

382
00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:37.200
And if you put it in a place where it's

383
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:40.160
not blocking traffic, then you can you can.

384
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.359
I don't know where it's going to go yet, but.

385
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:44.039
Let's face it, how many times have we been in

386
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:48.240
any universal experience, And whether it's in a haunt or

387
00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:50.400
in a scare zone, there's always at least somebody there

388
00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:52.839
in a uniform with a wand trying to wave you

389
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:58.319
through because there's a crowd for me. As long, like

390
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:00.160
I said, as long as they've done their homework, as

391
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:06.000
long as they understand here's what could happen, and not

392
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.359
just well we've done we've done games like this before

393
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:12.160
and it wasn't a problem. Well it's a whole new

394
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:17.200
world now, right, So well, hopefully they're thinking about it.

395
00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:22.680
I think they might be thinking about how they are

396
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:24.960
going to try and make up for their bad summer numbers.

397
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:29.000
That's what I think, which is exactly going to our.

398
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.000
Probably last story of the show.

399
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:33.200
By the time we get through it is universal posted

400
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:35.359
their earnings and I'm just going to give the til

401
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:39.720
dr on this, which is guests who come are spending more,

402
00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:43.720
but fewer guests are coming. That's the takeaway from the

403
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:46.119
entire earnings call. There you go safety like two hours

404
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.200
and it's we can look at the numbers, you know,

405
00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:52.359
but that's what it boils down to. Ibita is down,

406
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.000
which means that they're making less from people, but that

407
00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:57.480
people are spending more due to inflated prices. That's what's

408
00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:00.559
going on, and they're blaming the macro environment.

409
00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:01.680
That's it. That's what's going on.

410
00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:05.039
They're saying, turning to the parks, the operating environment has

411
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.319
softened more than we anticipated. Growth in Orlando came in

412
00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:11.119
below our expectations as the tendants began to soften in

413
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:14.799
June and has remained pressured into the third quarter. They

414
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:17.400
also explained how a tendants across the broader Orlando markets

415
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.279
has begun to soften in June with some temporary factors

416
00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:24.440
at work, including higher fuel prices and weaker consumer sentiment,

417
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.599
and when asked directly in the Q and A, Kavanahau

418
00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:31.759
described essentially weakness and attendance driven by weakness and consumer

419
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:35.279
sentiment at high and higher travel costs, and he says

420
00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.440
they do not view it as a permanent change in

421
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:41.359
the outlook. Well, yes, because they're going into Halloween season

422
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.160
and all in season is clearly what they're betting on

423
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:47.079
with the things we just literally talked about for twenty minutes.

424
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:51.960
So one note here is they said specifically at EPIC,

425
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.319
we continue to see it doing well, that doing what

426
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.680
we wanted to do is delivering against our expectations. Kavanaugh said,

427
00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.880
creating it with driving higher per cap spending and strickening

428
00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:03.839
broad to Orlando as a true multidestination resort. His summary

429
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:05.960
of the problem is that it's an overall demand drop

430
00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:10.799
that's sitting all of Orlando more broadly. A few two

431
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:15.000
more interesting threads. One is that Japan is doing worse

432
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.720
apparently where and it's coming We've talked about this, but

433
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:23.440
basically it's coming from the Chinese tourists that you're dropping,

434
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:28.240
and that's because there's been that those geopolitical issues happening

435
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.240
between China and Japan, where China is still upset at

436
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:36.599
Japan for Japan for arguing for Taiwan independence, and so

437
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:41.759
because of that, China is discouraging people from traveling to Japan,

438
00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:43.559
and so they're seeing a drop in their Chinese tour

439
00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:47.039
numbers which they're not recovered from. So that's what's going

440
00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:51.240
on there. And then the last thing that kind of

441
00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:53.839
got in our industry they got some people upset was

442
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:57.400
this comment they made near the end, which they're basically

443
00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:00.359
they were just summarizing that it's a long cycle business,

444
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:01.759
kind of being like we're in it for the long haul,

445
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:03.160
as long you know, we're going to get through this

446
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:06.200
diplah blah, but they said that we're again one of

447
00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:10.759
two players. It basically went to discount how it's only

448
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:12.720
them in Disney and nothing nobody else matters.

449
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.119
Is that kind of the gist of that.

450
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:17.799
And they talked about the Universal Kids Resort, which I

451
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:20.160
would not have brought up honestly.

452
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:21.640
If it would be on this call, I would have

453
00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:22.400
stuck to Epic.

454
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.519
And then they also pointed out how the Universal UK

455
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.960
is proceeding and they're going through zoning clearances and those elements.

456
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:34.359
So that's sailing calling a nutshell.

457
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:36.000
Mean, while I look at the shiny new thing over

458
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:37.759
here in Europe, that's really what they're doing.

459
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:40.279
That's really what they're doing. Yeah, that's it, that's it.

460
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:41.279
It's it's distraction.

461
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:43.440
Now.

462
00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:45.680
We talked about this on The Bonus Show last week.

463
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:49.000
I wrote an essay about this, and it was crazy

464
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:51.720
about the timing because I wrote the essay and we

465
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:53.400
talked about it on The Bone Show last week about

466
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:58.119
the idea of really that summer is becoming the shoulder season.

467
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:02.359
And the whole premise is that it is what's the

468
00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:06.920
value proposition? All it is is the same core product

469
00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:09.519
with nothing additional, and if your core product is weak

470
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:13.759
or if the macroeconomic environment is challenging, it becomes harder

471
00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:14.279
to sell.

472
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:17.240
And then when you look at all they have planned

473
00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:17.839
for Halloween.

474
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:19.839
So I guess, what's the calculus If you're going to

475
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:22.640
spend your money and you know, come when you can

476
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:25.240
see all the Halloween stuff, you can stay all day,

477
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:27.759
get the whole core product, plus do the combo ticket.

478
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:30.319
And I just want to know, doubt this year.

479
00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:32.839
This year their combo ticket is going to allow some

480
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.119
hot houses to open at two pm in Orlando, so

481
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:36.920
similar to what.

482
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.880
They do in Osaka. So really, what's the calculus?

483
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:42.839
You could buy one ticket and stay the whole day,

484
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:45.680
get all core product plus all of Halloween, even by

485
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:47.759
express if you want, Why are you going to come

486
00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:50.359
in the middle of the summer when everything is hot

487
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:53.359
and you get no Halloween or any additional product. So

488
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:57.359
it's really I think that's that. I think that's part

489
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:01.079
of it. And we talked about the softening demand literally

490
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:03.480
last week, and then it showed up on the earnings call, and.

491
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:09.240
Anyway, well it's and what I think is interesting too

492
00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:13.440
is it kind of goes back to the really bold

493
00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:16.680
statement I made a while back, which was I don't

494
00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:18.880
know how much longer the megaparks are going to be

495
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:22.960
the be all and end all. I think that, you know,

496
00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:27.839
because they are so expensive, they have priced themselves out.

497
00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:31.319
I think that you know, we've heard this. We've heard this,

498
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:34.119
attendance is down, but in park spending is up. We've

499
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:37.880
heard this in multiple earnings calls over the last probably

500
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.880
year and a half to two years. And so that's great.

501
00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:45.480
You've got a core audience that loves to be there.

502
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.559
Your attendance is down, your in park spending is up.

503
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:52.519
They still haven't found then that balance to keep their

504
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:56.359
profit margins up, because if you know, is it is

505
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:59.640
it financial that has driven them away? I don't know that.

506
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:03.480
I don't know that. I think there's I think because

507
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:05.680
what happens is when parks go, when parks start to

508
00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:08.839
have trouble, they immediately go too well, gas is too

509
00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:11.839
high and travel is too expensive. And they never say

510
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:13.960
their parks are too expensive, which I think is interesting.

511
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:16.920
But they say everything around the parks, it's everybody else's fault,

512
00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:20.000
but us, everybody around the parks is too expensive. And

513
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:25.880
my response is there was a time when at like

514
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.759
Walt Disney World, for example, families would go to Walt

515
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:33.440
Disney World maybe three times in a child's life. It

516
00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:39.440
was you'd set up so that you'd go, enjoy, go

517
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:43.440
back to the Midwest, spend another four years, come back again,

518
00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:47.319
do it again, go away. It wasn't the oh gosh,

519
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.119
I've got to have I've got to have a reason

520
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:52.960
to go every fifteen minutes. So I think that that

521
00:27:53.079 --> 00:27:59.200
the way we consume parks is actually leading to this.

522
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:01.920
It's like, because nobody can afford to go every fifteen

523
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:06.279
minutes because the pricing is so high, you know, ticket prices,

524
00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:10.880
individual ticket prices are so high, even even passes are high.

525
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.319
I think, well, so I have some data points on

526
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:16.759
that really to add in to finish out this. So

527
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:20.920
they didn't put this on an urninges call, but they

528
00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:24.839
have dropped discounts for pass holders for Epic Universe, so

529
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:27.119
up to forty percent off basically to go get day

530
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:32.359
tickets for pass holders in there. And meanwhile, they mentioned

531
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:35.599
that they're hoping the Fast Inferious roller coaster is going

532
00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:39.000
to make Hollywood, you know, bump that up. But they

533
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:41.200
haven't announced an opening date yet, like they still, I

534
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:43.559
mean it's been delayed. Still haven't really announced it and

535
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:47.519
then related to all this just as a thing. Tokyo

536
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:50.680
Disney is actually raising its prices for the October season

537
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.160
for the first time in a very long time, and

538
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:56.759
six Flags has just launched a huge Christmas in July

539
00:28:56.839 --> 00:28:59.400
summer sale where they're doing single day tickets from thirty

540
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:02.720
five tall and double day tickets from two day tickets

541
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:04.279
from fifty to seventy eight dollars to pen.

542
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.440
Where it is and it all cuts off.

543
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:08.680
You can use it basically all up until the Halloween

544
00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:11.720
season starts and then it's over. So so maybe they're

545
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.200
starting to realize the parts are a little bit too expensive,

546
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:16.960
at least for what they're offering during this time, right,

547
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:20.440
so they're starting to put some discounts in well.

548
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:23.000
And the thing is there and people don't notice it

549
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:25.680
until all of a sudden, the because there's a much

550
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:28.799
more there's a much more educated consumer there now who

551
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.880
will look at I can get the core product and

552
00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:35.680
the seasonal overlay at what it's like, Wait a minute, well,

553
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:37.799
why would we go here and just get the core product?

554
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:41.400
Core product is definitely worth a ticket price, but it's

555
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.359
it's like it's a value proposition, and people aren't. People

556
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:48.319
aren't stupid about that anymore. They do their research, they

557
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:50.599
look at it. There's a whole generation out there who

558
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:53.720
have young children who are doing just that, and so

559
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:56.839
you I think what we're seeing here is an equalization.

560
00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:59.079
I think we're seeing them try to figure out, Okay,

561
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:01.799
we've hit we hit the max that we could charge

562
00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:03.240
people on a daily Now we got to figure it

563
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:06.200
out because now it's starting to have diminishing returns. So

564
00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:08.640
we've got to find that balance again and find that equalization.

565
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:13.480
And hopefully you know, to me, it's not I don't

566
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:16.519
look at it as a catastrophic news. I see it

567
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.880
as they're having to rebalance and write size. The problem

568
00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:22.640
is the industry didn't have to do this kind of

569
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.720
right sizing multiple times per year. They had to do

570
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:29.839
it once every three to five years, where they'd go, Okay,

571
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:32.039
maybe we should maybe we can charge a little bit more,

572
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:35.079
or maybe we need to offer some discounts or whatever.

573
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:42.480
But the attendance base and the attendance behavior of guests

574
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:46.680
is very fluid and they need to find a way

575
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:50.759
to adapt quickly, and it sounds like they will. But

576
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:52.960
like I said, the percentages are not We had a

577
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.519
fifty percent drop. That would be terrifying, but that's not

578
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:59.960
what they're saying. So hopefully they will find a way

579
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:02.359
to right size this, and hopefully we can find a

580
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:04.160
way to put an end to this show because our

581
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:07.400
time is up. So guys, thank you all so much

582
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:09.240
for watching or listening. My name is Scott Swinson with

583
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:14.279
Scott Swinson Creative Development and my amazingly wonderful, brilliant, hardworking

584
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:19.559
co host mister Philipernandez from Gantum Lighting and Control. This

585
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:21.400
is Green Tag Theme Park in thirty and we will

586
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:22.559
see you all next week.