Pruning Parks, Powering Up Hotels: Six Flags Shutters as DC Invades Gaylord

Philip Hernandez (00:00.618)
From our studios this week in Los Angeles and Tampa, this is Green Tagged Theme Park in 30. I'm Phillip, I'm joined as always by my wonderful co-host, Scott Swenson of Scott Swenson Career Development. On Green Tagged, we break down the top theme park news each week for business professionals to discuss and discuss why it matters to you all. And this week, I think we're gonna start with a story that made the rounds last week quite a round, but of course we were sidetracked with Fan Fest, but.

We'll talk about this week, which is that Six Flags America in Maryland is going to close after 2025 season. The company will shutter the 500 acre Bowie park and Hurricane Harbor in November 2025, putting the site up for sale. The closure cuts around 70 full time and 700 seasonal jobs and erases 3.5 million in annual county tax revenue. The CEO cites post merger portfolio management as Six Flags and Cedar Fair shift capital to higher returns. We

did extensive coverage on the Six Flags and Cedar Fair merger previously. And we talked previously about how you should expect this type of thing, which is really normal. It's really just looking at underperforming areas and getting rid of them. And especially in the context of what we talked about the last several shows, which is like Universal's, how much capital they have. I mean, this is effectively them reducing an underperforming park and taking that capital to reinvest it.

Scott (00:59.256)
So, next slide.

Philip Hernandez (01:26.46)
in other parts of the portfolio that could have a higher yield. So I think this is a harbinger maybe of other choices. Expect more, I think you could expect more regional parks to face the idea of redeveloped or reinvest and resell and what they're gonna do with that. But Scott, what do we think? this?

Scott (01:46.316)
Well, when this first came out, the first thing that people kept saying is, look, they just got Geo-galact! Because when Geo-galact went away, they found that they could actually earn more money by selling the land off to a developer for housing. And I think that's what's happening here. But I think it's also, and it's not just underperforming parks, it's also when you have two behemoths...

Philip Hernandez (02:03.626)
Mm-hmm.

Scott (02:15.47)
in any industry and they come together, they want to make sure that they're not competing with one another. because it just ends up what was, you know, healthy competition now becomes, well, wait, we're splitting our splitting our potential profit. So they want to make sure that they're going through the portfolio and saying what parks are can we take the

get rid of this park, can we take that audience and shift them over here slightly, or can we shift them over there? And you know, this park has kind of a unique history too. It also, I mean, it actually started as a wild animal park and then didn't become a theme park until much later in its existence.

It's one of those things that I think you're right, Philip. I think we're going to see more of this in Six Flags. I think there's going to be a lot more scrutiny and sharpening of pencils to figure out, you know, how can we make the overall company more profitable? And I have seen a couple of people, once this announcement came out, saying, you know, people actually asking the question, was it a good idea for Peter Fair and Six Flags to actually merge? Because we haven't really seen any positivity come from it.

and I just remind people it's it's like it's gonna it's gonna move it's gonna move like an aircraft carrier not like a speedboat so it's gonna be it's gonna be slow it's gonna be steady it's way too early to tell whether it was a good idea bad idea neutral idea so this is this is one of the things now I will say

I also had many, many friends since I grew up in the Chicagoland area going, my gosh, Great America is closing. No, Six Flags Great America in Gurney, Illinois is not closing. This is Six Flags America, which is in Maryland. So just outside Baltimore.

Philip Hernandez (04:06.216)
Yeah. Well, think, you know, what are the takeaways, I think, for smaller operators about this? Or is there any, I mean, is this news that they really need to care about? Or what would you say their takeaways?

Scott (04:20.41)
I think it's well I just think it's a good reminder that you need to set and achieve your financial goals and not just accept the fact that you know like if you are a park that is is under the umbrella of a much larger corporation that they're going to protect you forever they're going to evaluate

And it's usually when this kind of merger takes place that they reevaluate everything, you know, I, going back in time, having worked for Busch Gardens when it was, when it had multiple parent companies, each time there was a new parent company, there was a change in the way that things were done. there was a reevaluation of the way things were done.

and they were then aligned with the the new parent company's way of doing things. It is something that happens all the time. It is nothing to be feared, but it is something to be recognized that it will it will happen. And so if there are listeners who are currently working for other flags parks, just just be aware. And I will be honest,

It would surprise me if this came as a surprise to anybody who was working at Six Flags America. They knew it was going to happen. Like I said, things move very, very slowly when these kinds of things happen. The fact that it's being announced now so that it's they'll get all the way through the end of this season. They will be able to conclude this season and then it will go away. It gives everybody the opportunity to make the appropriate changes in their lives. Nothing is forever.

And I think that's important to recognize. And so once again, for all those people who this does impact on a personal and direct level, the same mantra that I've used in my own personal career and continue to share with everybody else, don't panic, just pivot, find a new way, your adjustments. I know that...

Scott (06:26.21)
there are, anytime there are closures, layoffs, changes, other companies in the industry recognize that this is happening and they start looking to those people to go, wait a minute, we could really use somebody who has that skill set for us. I know we did that with casting and staffing here in Florida when Legoland let go of the majority of their entertainment.

folks, we immediately held auditions the next day. We basically invited all the people that we knew and said, hey, you know, it's not a full-time gig, but we got a seasonal gig coming up here in Tampa. Maybe it's something you might be interested in. So it's it made for those of you who may be directly impacted.

Again, don't panic. The industry knows that you're there and good work gets good work. So if you are in high standing in your current position, it puts you in good stead for potential new opportunities. And, but I think it's important to recognize this is not, you know, there are people who will say, Oh, this is so unfair. I've worked here all my life. I grew up, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's a business. It is a business and it's important to recognize that.

The only thing you can do is you don't necessarily have to like the change, but you have to embrace the change. You have to make sure, you know, if you've ever received an email from me, you will see that my signature line is embrace the day. And that happened when I was no longer with Bush.

Because each day brings something new and gives you the opportunity to continue your career maybe not in exactly the direction that you thought you were going but it gives you the opportunity to figure out what can I do today that's going to make my job better and and just recognize this kind of thing is going to happen, know, businesses are going to come and go and The advantage of being under a big

Scott (08:18.702)
corporate umbrella is that you have a lot of buying power. There is some protection, there is some insulation from some smaller variations, but it also means that when they go in and look at all of the parts and pieces, they have to make sure that the giant umbrella is also being taken care of. So I'm

I'm sorry for the people that this impacts on a frontline level, but again, don't panic. This is a big industry and there's a lot of new stuff out there and a lot of people who are looking for people with your skill set. think of the industry as a macrocosm, not an individual park, and you'll be fine.

Philip Hernandez (08:57.704)
Well, that's a great segue and especially the pivoting section of that. don't panic, just pivot. Let's talk about how the Gaylord Hotels are powering up with DC this summer. So Gaylord's four supersized convention resorts will trade glass atriums for glass cases of kryptonite this summer. They're doing DC summer runs from May 23rd through September 1st at the Gaylord Opera Land, the Palms, the Texan, and the Rockies.

Scott (08:57.966)
Thank you.

Philip Hernandez (09:27.674)
And just to break it down, there's over a dozen fan activations, the Battle for Justice light show, the Riddler scavenger hunt, character dining, poolside movie night, secret menu cocktails, all this kind of stuff. The biggest thing though is the universe of light lantern walkthrough, which is only at the Gaylord Texan. And this is basically 40 DC heroes and villains rendered in 24 foot tall glowing sculptures across 17 and a half thousand square feet. So this is a big.

walkthrough kind of installation here. And I think why this is important is because the Gaylord brand keeps leaning into IP driven seasonal events to fill the shoulder seasons, which again is a pivoting item. You know, we've talked about the softening tourism demand. I know from speaking from speaking to some of the hoteliers and looking at some of the hotelier news that that softening demand is causing room nights to also decrease and occupancy rates to lower. And so

pivoting, what do you do? You pivot into, instead of relying on the destinations, you become the destination and you find a way to bring in foot traffic for your items. So essentially what they're doing is they're leveraging the hotels themselves to become like standalone attractions and kind of creating these like mini con on property experiences. And then that can upsell people into staying there overnight to do some exclusive experiences. So I think

from a pivoting standpoint and a concept standpoint, this is excellent. It's also very similar to what we talked about with FanFest last week because the Gaylord is known for their ice events that Nico kind of pioneered and is directing across all the properties now that rotate through. so similar to Halloween Horror Nights and FanFest, it's like if ice is their Halloween Horror Nights, what can they do in the other shoulder seasons that doesn't conflict too much? And of course,

they can do this DC thing. It's the first time they've partnered with the Warner Brothers discovery and it also builds on the buzz already for the new Superman movie. So I think on every level, this is a great idea actually.

Scott (11:39.32)
Well, just, again, I think one of the things that we have to keep in mind, you we always talk about what's the takeaway, and I'm gonna start with takeaway, because I think it makes the most sense here. You mentioned FanFest at Universal California, FanFest Nights. This is another perfect example of the power of the pop-up, because that's really what this is. It's nothing, and the cool thing about it is, because again, we both know Nico, and we've both worked

well, I've worked for, well, we both worked for the different Gaelic properties. And I also know some folks who are involved with this particular, these particular installations as well. One of the things that they have always been really good at, and if you look at what is the selection of elements, they are less concerned about the...

the events or the pop-up, they're more concerned about room rate, or about room, filling the rooms. That's their, that is their sole priority, as well it should be, they are a hotel. So, they want to make certain that their, their rooms are sold. And the, what I think is interesting about this, and ICE, and so many of the other installations, they've done pirates, they've done a bunch of different things over the years.

One of the things I think is most interesting is the fact that these are not necessarily things that people are going to go, ooh, I have to plan my whole trip around this experience. But it is the tipping point between staying on a local attractions property and staying on a Gaylord hotel. Now, I will say that all four of these Gaylord hotels, and I've been to two of the four, I've stayed at two of the four, they're phenomenal. They're gorgeous.

properties and they in and of themselves are pretty pretty special pretty amazing. But these these pop-up experiences doing doing the scavenger hunt for example that is something that they have done for ice that's something they have done for pirates that's something that it's and it makes perfect sense because again playing into your your your assets they have a gorgeous indoor facility that is completely safe for families with young children.

Scott (14:02.52)
to wander around and try to explore and it gets them out of their rooms to explore the different areas within the resort itself. Super smart, super smart. Light shows, one of the things that they've always done well. The Christmas experience in the Grand Atrium in Orlando is amazing. And there are actually people who will book specific rooms now because it has built its reputation over the years.

Philip Hernandez (14:12.884)
Yep. Yep.

Scott (14:32.258)
will book specific rooms so that they can have a room where they can see the light show and they will book them a year in advance. it's... Gaylord is really smart in the way that they do these kinds of installations. They don't do so much that it becomes cost prohibitive, but they do enough so that it makes an impact and they do enough that hits their target audience, hits their family audience.

Philip Hernandez (14:52.799)
Hmm.

Scott (15:01.582)
to again, get those, the room penetration back up to where they are comfortable. Yeah, I think this is yet another, I'm guessing they're gonna hit this one out of the park just like they have done with ICE and some of their other installations.

Philip Hernandez (15:15.998)
Yep. Yeah. I think it's also critical. You keep mentioning it, but I think it's pretty clear what their North Star is. And that might be, you know, I think if anything, that might've been our, my main criticism from FanFest. Again, just to reiterate, like I don't, I love the event. think it's great. Universal's doing it, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, I think it was unclear what the North Star of that event is. Is it to activate?

nostalgia, is it to activate individual fan bases or like what's the North Star? And I think like you point out, it's clear even to us is just looking at this event that the North Star is to fill rooms. That's the North Star. And it's like, what do we do to fill the rooms? It's like, we can add this thing to make the decision more in our favor, like you said, and then it also increases traffic, which could lead to room. I mean, it's like everything is like, we need to.

Scott (15:57.56)
Mm-hmm.

Philip Hernandez (16:12.638)
get our occupancy of the hotel up. And I think that's excellent, because it's clear across the board what the thing is. And I think that's also a big takeaway when you're making these events at your attraction is making sure the entire team from creative all the way down through to your operators understands what the actual North Star is so that you're not kind of like fighting like, is it, you know, is it this North Star or is it that North Star or like, you know,

or you don't have different departments with different goals. Like everything should be aligned. And it's clear that it is.

Scott (16:45.004)
Right. Well, and so much I don't have I don't have proprietary information is as to what their percentages is percentages are. But I mean, look at it this way. If, for example, someone is booked in because their bread and butter for years was the convention market. So if they have somebody they're traveling for business, if they have this pop up experience that's perfect for families, dad doesn't come home or mom doesn't come home.

Friday the family comes and joins them for the weekend. So they expand their they expand their their room penetration by two nights Because they they end up staying a couple extra nights so that the family can join them and have a good time Or they start and whatever however, they work that out It also encourages those people who are coming for business to add their families, which again, they're all

It may add an extra room, you know, for example, mom and dad have their own room and the kids have their own room and it's connecting. So it doubles the number of rooms potentially. It's just so smart because it doesn't detract from their bread and butter. It adds to it. And I think that's super smart. And again, utilizing all of them have beautiful indoor spaces that can be utilized for light shows, scavenger hunts.

character shows, character meet and greets, it's character dining experiences. They've got all of these assets in place and so they are utilizing their main bread and butter and just adding some extra juge, some extra branded juge and now that they're expanding into the world of IP outside of ICE, ICE has used IP in the past, but for these kinds of things expanding into

the world of DC makes total sense. Total sense.

Philip Hernandez (18:46.218)
Okay, all right, next up here, this is also kind in the same vein of stuff we've been talking about recently with kind of, maybe this maybe could be a harbinger of more to come, but the Sacramento Zoo Society says that the planned 65 acre Elk Grove Zoo won't proceed. A downsized version would not be financially or operationally sustainable. The city has already spent four and a half million on studies and design and bought nearly 100 acres.

It will now explore selling that land and refund the 1.9 million in donations that it received for it. Construction had been slated for 2027. The 300 million price tag ballooned amid higher borrowing and construction costs. So I think this collapse shows how the rising interest rates, as we talked about, you know, with the 10 years going up, the interest rates going up and cost inflation, which we've also talked about, are derailing large zoo and aquarium projects.

Regional municipalities according new attractions must now lock down funding earlier and build in bigger cost contingencies if they want this big headline grabbing tourist assets to cross the finish line. I think this, we will see if this is maybe the first of multiple of these kinds of projects to get derailed, but we talked about this, we've been talking about this for weeks, even a 5 % cost increase across a project of this scale.

when you're relying so much on fundraising and specific targets really just throws out a proportion. I want Scott specifically to talk about this because Scott has experience working on capex projects at the theme parks, but also a lot of experience recently, especially with aquariums and zoos. Scott, is this a harbinger of more to come? What can people do about this kind of thing? what do you overall, all these things.

Scott (20:36.096)
Let me start by saying not all zoos and aquariums work their funding the same way. There are some zoos and aquariums that will not announce a project until it is fully funded. There are others that will announce a project in hopes of driving their funding efforts. Zoos and aquariums are, for the most part, well, actually all of them are nonprofit organizations, all the ones I work for, are nonprofit organizations. And I think

part of it is, you know, yes, I agree that the the lack of security on what things are going to actually cost is is a huge issue right now.

It's it's an and no one knows exactly where it's going to go I think it's that uncertainty that makes it that makes it the most dangerous If people were certain they could plan for it, but there is no certainty and I think there's I think that's one of the big concerns We have seen you know more and more government funding for nonprofit organizations Being either either going away or being threatened so

I think zoos and aquariums are just sitting there going, how much longer before that really impacts us? And not only corporate funding, but also, I'm sorry, not only government funding, but also corporate funding, because if corporations are starting to lose money, they're going to be less and less likely to be major donors for zoos and aquariums.

Philip Hernandez (22:06.666)
It's

Scott (22:08.346)
So I think that is another issue. It's something that I'm seeing happen across the board, not just in zoos and aquariums, but it's very prominent there. I have a client, a potential client that is just hanging out right now that said, we love this project. When we do it, this is the team we're going to use.

we just have to figure out how to secure funding that we know is going to come through for it. So the whole idea of funding for nonprofits, think, is something that it's not just the tariffs. It's not just the tariffs, although that is a factor when you're doing major construction. One of the things that I think we're going to see

Philip Hernandez (22:47.071)
Yeah.

Scott (22:57.066)
is that the smart zoos and aquariums will lean more heavily into financially profitable seasonal events. Because I think there is an opportunity here to take a little bit, take a little more of a page out of the theme park books. And many zoos have already shifted in this direction. Zoo Tampa, for example, you they recognize that they earn money off of

Philip Hernandez (23:08.114)
Ooh yeah.

Scott (23:24.046)
their Halloween and Christmas events. And there are other zoos that I have worked for that have shown record attendance during a really positive, powerful Halloween or Christmas or summer or whatever event. So I think that with... I think they're going to... If they are smart, they're going to look into other ways to find funding. And one of the other ways to find funding is...

to invest a little bit of time and effort into those seasonal activities. Now, obviously I'm biased because I work on those and I will be totally transparent. Halloween and Christmas events, I've done several for zoos and aquariums and I think that...

I've always thought it was a great way to generate additional revenue, but now it's not just going to be additional revenue, it's going to be imperative revenue if they want to continue to expand certain areas. And it's going to get to a point where, you know, the flow of donations, either private, corporate, or governmental, are going to get a little rockier before it becomes a smooth flow of cash again. So I think...

now is the time for these non-profits, in my opinion, now is the time for these non-profits to start thinking about, to start thinking a little bit more like a for-profit organization, so that they can generate the revenue they need to build that beautiful animal habitat, to build that amazing hospital for their their hoof stock, to find new and different ways. They have to, they have to be more cognizant of the guest experience

than they ever have been before. And many zoos and aquariums have already done this, but the majority of people that I have worked with have most of their focus is on the animals. And that's the way it should be. The animals should be cared for. That should be their primary concern. However, it's to the point now where it's not just people are going to give you money to do that. It's you have to earn the money so you can do that.

Scott (25:30.442)
and I think that's really important. In fact, I think that's so important just last week. My company, I actually became a member of AZA so that I'm more in the loop, so that I can help my zoological and my aquarium clients to be more...

effective in the way that they generate revenue so that they can continue to expand and grow and do these great new projects. I guess my in summation, I think it's important now that zoos and aquariums recognize they have to generate some of their own revenue or some additional revenue.

Philip Hernandez (26:15.176)
Yeah, I don't want to spend too long on this. want to get another thing, but just really briefly, think exactly what you said ties thematically to our episode last week about FanFest nights, is utilized again. And also what you talked about utilizing assets to activate people to bring in, you know, it's, it doesn't, and also ties to previous story about Gaylord, you know, bringing in shoulder events and whatnot. So I think all of that tracks those larger trends track and

Scott (26:30.317)
Mm-hmm.

Philip Hernandez (26:43.498)
we could summarize it by saying it also applies to using the aquariums. You know, they're not separate from the entertainment ecosystem. are part of the entertainment ecosystem and they're, they're have the same overall trends and forces still apply to them. But it is getting harder to rely on just that one revenue stream, like we've talked about diversifying your revenue, especially now there's new taxes, there's there's new taxes that are being discussed also, which would tax their

tickets and their donations at a higher percentage, which also would cut into that. So basically, they need to start thinking much more like the theme parks and come up with these different events to raise revenue. but

Scott (27:23.328)
And don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying for a moment that they should change their mission. I'm not saying for a moment that they should take their focus off of the well-being of the animals. They absolutely should. They just need to find new ways to fund that. And, and recognize, because all too often, you know, even, even today, many of the people who are experts in the zoological and the aquarium world, are, they come from a time where just because it was the right thing to do meant it got funded.

and that's not necessarily the case in our current environment. be more entrepreneurial is the takeaway.

Philip Hernandez (28:00.788)
So before we sign off this week, I do want to answer some questions that we got in for the last, we're a little late on answering these questions, but that's okay because at least we got to them. the first one was from a few weeks ago, it was on the Comcast earnings episode and basically Grobble8954 basically said that Comcast and Disney need to do the same thing and separate their other businesses from the theme parks, resorts, Disney needs to put theme parks.

in a separate from the streaming and so does Comcast, blah, blah. Here's the thing. Okay. I think you would be hard pressed to find a breakup that did not work well for most everybody. You know, when you break up companies, it does tend to make the individual companies better, the earnings better. You know, it's better for everybody except the CEO, because the CEO, their compensation is generally tied to the size of the overall business. So,

The incentive structure for the CEO of course is to make a larger business overall and get compensated more. And that kind of at many times works against what would be best for the individual shareholders or even the individual businesses, which would have higher valuations if they were split up. So, I don't disagree with you, but I don't think it's going to happen. and it's just because that's how I would say America, the businesses writ large work and

especially with right now with a department set aren't going to really look at mergers or really look at monopoly or really split people up on that, then it's just, so that's my answer. It's just, it's going to be, that's just the state of things is that you have, the reason is because we have these forces working against each other. You have what would be in the best interest of the companies is yes, to split them up, you know, but that's just not going to happen because that's not how the CEO wants to do things, because that's how they get paid.

Scott (29:56.258)
Well, and I'm gonna throw another, because this is clearly not my area of expertise, but that doesn't stop me from talking about it, never has. So I think that it's interesting because we also have spent a great deal of time on this show talking about the importance and the power of diversification. And if you split up, then you're not diversified. If you split up, then you become myopic. So there are advantages and disadvantages to that answer.

And I would love to be able to sit here and give you all of the reasons for it and all the reasons against it, but I'm not that smart, so I can't do that. But I will say that, you know, and I think we said it multiple times, one of the shows that we did in the past week or so, is that, you know, the whole reason, for example, Universal, specifically with Comcast, the whole reason Universal can be a bit more cavalier is because they're not spending loan money. They're spending money that is owned by the company.

Philip Hernandez (30:52.594)
Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Exactly.

Scott (30:54.414)
And I think that the cross-pollination of the different sides of Comcast gives them that specific advantage. Yes, there are advantages to splitting up. Absolutely. You become more focused. It's smaller and deeper versus wider and shallower. But I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater there because there are advantages.

for that diversification and for those larger umbrella companies. Whether it may all play out, I don't know, but I just want to throw that in there because it's because of that diversification that Universal is able to be so bold, specifically in the Comcast example.

Philip Hernandez (31:38.054)
The next other one to also to address from the same video, Sean Moore 3648 asked, I was curious if you could address in a future video the logic of a ride line design that includes a room that guests enter, listen to and watch a show and then proceed onto the ride. Does this help with wait times or pulsing people on the ride? We noticed in the Epic Monsters ride there were two rooms and we were trying to figure out the logic.

Perhaps it's strictly for entertainment. Thanks. Scott, you take this one.

Scott (32:08.366)
So you want to keep people, you want to, the trend right now is to blur the line between I am waiting in queue and I'm experiencing the ride. And I think that designers are trying to retrain us so that we don't just think about, it's the ride, it's the ride, I gotta get on the ride, gotta get on the ride. The experience starts.

Philip Hernandez (32:23.859)
Exactly.

Scott (32:34.968)
when you enter the realm, when you enter the zone. I mean, Epic is a perfect example. You go through a portal before you even get to the individual rides. You go through a portal, which is your point of entry. The fact that in many theme park experiences, you spend a vast majority of your time in a queue versus on a ride. You the rides are minutes. The queues are potentially hours. So to not make the queue part of the experience,

is a, in my opinion, a disservice to the guest. I also think, you know, and I think specifically the one that I think really nailed it was when they first opened Wizarding World, you know, when you go into the castle, the cue, in my opinion, is as impressive, if not more impressive, than the ride itself. It is to keep people

Philip Hernandez (33:21.577)
Yeah.

The castle, yeah.

Scott (33:33.482)
Entertained it's also a perception of gosh. I only got to do two things You know, I got to ride one ride and I got to ride another ride But I was waiting in queue for four hours total during the course of the day But when those cues are that entertaining they become part of the experience and it's not just about the ride itself

So, all right. Well, thank you for those questions. Really do appreciate those. Keep them coming. We love those questions because that way we can answer or address things that you feel are important other than just the things that Philip and I think are important. Because quite honestly, we're here to serve you. So please keep those questions coming. We are way over time. And I know we're called Theme Parking 30, but hey, you know, we get to talking. On behalf of Philip Hernandez, I'm Scott Swenson. This is Green Tech Theme Parking 30. And we will see you all next week.